Don, I am listening to the tapes form the last conference---over and over and over and I keep getting bogged down in the description of shame. I can't seem to sort out if it is a dependent variable or an independent one. For instance, you say on Tape 1 that shame is the RESPONSE to an impediment to interest-excitement or enjoyment-joy. Later on, however, you say that it IS the impediment. Is it BOTH the impediment and the response to the impediment...i.e., a loop?