Rich, I appreciate your emotional response. I beleive we both have strong feelings here and I see little or no potential for convergence. However, in your response you stated that those who have been subjected to abuse (developmentally) often become the perpetrators of abuse. Wether I agree with this or not (as I see it those who abuse others often "claim" to have also been victems of abuse as part of their legal defense) is moot. One thing I do suggest is that we focus on those individuals who were subjected to abuse and do not abuse others (perpetuate the abuse). What makes these people different? What personal strength do these individuals have that those who do abuse do not? How could these people (abuse victems/non abuse perpetrators) be used as role models for those who feel compeled to continue the vicious cycle of abuse? I know quite a few people who were subjected to almost unimaginable abuse growing up and as young adults yet they are not predisposed to victemizing others and appear to be quite well adjusted adults (if not exceptional adults). Finally, I am not particularly taken with the Shame/Affect theoris as proposed on this forum so please consider a response that has broader theoritical foundations..........Ed