Behavior OnLine - Chat Transcript Mar. 28, 1999

CHAT TRANSCRIPT - Mar. 28, 1999

14:59:38	JohnSuler	contact me through email, Judy (suler@voicenet.com)
14:59:55	JohnSuler	Hello Nancy
15:00:09	JohnSuler	The universal (Greenwich) time is 20
15:00:10	dr-bob	But it's 02:58 somewhere! :-)
15:00:17	Judy-K	Thanks! I am interested.
15:00:20	george	Hi John, this is my first time. I'm trying to get the hang of it.
15:00:57	dr-bob	Dori, that or chaos.
15:00:58	JohnSuler	TO AVOID BEING DISCONNECTED, OCCASIONALLY HIT THE REFRESH BUTTON
15:01:01	Javier-Salazar	Hello John. I think i must introduce myself, i m a venezuelan psychology student (pre-graduate), working on a thesis about identity in virtual communities
15:01:29	JohnSuler	to whisper to someone, use the whisper box and select the username
15:01:35	Javier-Salazar	and also, this is my first time
15:01:39	Dori	Thanks, John.
15:01:39	JohnSuler	Hello Noemi
15:01:42	Dr-Mike	Dori, I was quiet before for 5 minutes (a long time for me!) and didn't get kicked off. It may depend how busy it is. And hello Javier-Salazar, George, Vicki, Noemi, et at...
15:02:05	dr-bob	Hola, Javier!
15:02:08	JohnSuler	Hello stephen
15:02:11	Noemi-Balinth	Hello all!
15:02:23	Sheryl-Garner	Hello, it's great to be here but I'm having some trouble with my program.
15:02:28	Stephen-Biggs	hello all
15:02:29	dr-bob	(tick tick tick tick)
15:02:38	storm	Dr-Mike - if you use auto refresh it will not kick you off
15:02:42	JohnSuler	what's wrong sheryl?
15:03:06	JohnSuler	hello OFF.... (interesting username!)
15:03:12	JohnSuler	Hello Gil!!
15:03:16	storm	: OFF has joined.?????
15:03:18	JohnSuler	Hello Janet
15:03:26	dr-bob	Hey, Gil, nice setup! :-)
15:03:29	storm	hi gil!
15:03:45	JohnSuler	Hello Billie
15:03:46	Gil-Levin	Hi all!
15:03:48	Janet	greetings to all (Hi John!)
15:04:06	JohnSuler	be right back!
15:04:11	dr-bob	Maybe I ticked him...
15:04:31	Billie	Hi John... just setting up the screen sorry
15:04:58	Gil-Levin	I will be back in a flash
15:05:07	dr-bob	While John's away, may I ask how many of you are ISMHO members?
15:05:08	psyc-stu	is anybody recording this thread
15:05:20	JohnSuler	I'm back
15:05:25	Vicky-L	I didn't say hello yet, but hi everyone... Storm, Craig, John, etc - read your stuff... feel like I'm talking to celebrities
15:05:31	Javier-Salazar	Does someone on this chatroom knows about some kind of ciberpsichology or cyberculture investigation done on Latin-america?
15:05:37	Judy-K	I'm a member
15:05:39	Dr-Mike	Hi Gil... and last time, psyc-stu, a transcript was made and posted, I'd expect it again...
15:05:48	Billie	if Mark attends..... John you might ask him about the application he uses on his page much smoother than this 'refresh' method
15:05:53	storm	Vicky-L - thank you (blushes)
15:05:58	Dori	I just joined a few weeks ago... so "HI" to y'all!
15:06:03	Stephen-Biggs	I'm a member
15:06:25	Sheryl-Garner	I'm not able to refresh... I get a too much traffic error. I will keep trying tho!
15:06:27	Billie	Hi Mike
15:06:31	JohnSuler	WE'RE GOING TO START IN ABOUT 5 MINUTES
15:06:34	dr-bob	BTW, this isn't my chat room, it's Gil's (and John G.'s), and JohnSuler is our host this afternoon.
15:06:40	storm	be right back
15:06:43	Allan-Schwartz	Hi everyone
15:06:49	Javier-Salazar	I m asking, cause i ve found a lot of info on that matter but with north-american or european population, never on latin-americans
15:07:07	Dora--micki	Hi folks.
15:07:08	JohnSuler	Hello Allan
15:07:14	JohnSuler	Hello Francisco
15:07:16	dr-bob	I just got listed first somehow.
15:07:20	Gil-Levin	I left to add my email address. (Failed). Any I am back now
15:07:27	JohnSuler	IS EVERYONE DOING OK, TECHNICALLY SPEAKING
15:07:38	Billie	<---will sit and watch
15:07:46	Mary	Yes
15:07:49	Francisco-Lopez	Hello to all you from Malaga (Spain). I am ready for enjoy this chat.
15:07:52	Gil-Levin	Pretty good.
15:07:53	dr-bob	Javier, what kind of difference do you think there is?
15:07:54	Javier-Salazar	Im ok...
15:08:01	Craig-Childress	I just had a technical glitch - needed to reboot.
15:08:18	Francisco-Lopez	I am very well, technically. Thanks.
15:08:20	Dr-Mike	Humming along... (I think the busy-ness has an impact)
15:08:36	Billie	Greetings Craig... enjoyed your recent posts
15:08:40	Javier-Salazar	Maybe none. But i think is worth investigating...
15:08:46	dr-bob	Francisco, how about emotionally? :-)
15:08:49	Kimberly-Young	my server seems a little slow today, otherwise, technically okay!
15:08:51	JohnSuler	Hello Azy
15:09:10	Dori	I'm fine with the tech but hard keeping track of thread of the talk... and we haven't even started yet!
15:09:11	Dr-Mike	Hi Billie, missed you sign in...
15:09:32	Billie	technically...... I dislike this application...
15:09:37	JohnSuler	hello Paul
15:09:53	Vicky-L	ditto, Dori... but it's exciting :)
15:10:01	Billie	it's OK Mike it prolly happened during a 'refresh'
15:10:12	JohnSuler	there are some disadvantages to this program, FreeChat... but it's easy to use and works across many platforms
15:10:14	Dr--mancini	Hello everyone. Thanks for the reception.
15:10:35	Francisco-Lopez	I see there is many people who speak Spanish, like me (hola a todos)
15:10:35	dr-bob	Azy from Israel? Another international participant!
15:11:23	Javier-Salazar	Hola francisco, i'm also Spanish-speaking..
15:11:35	Billie	I understand JohnS.... there are however others with more features and less 'distractions' that are equally easy to use
15:11:54	Winona	Dr. Mancini as in Melrose Place?
15:11:55	OFF	Hi Azy. Why at last?
15:11:55	storm	azy - glad you could make it!
15:11:58	Francisco-Lopez	yes, I supposed it for your name, Javier.
15:11:58	JohnSuler	OK EVERYONE.... LET'S BEGIN
15:12:15	Dr--mancini	Philadelphia
15:12:15	Nancy-Board	I am having some technical difficulty.
15:12:20	dr-bob	It would be interesting if you could have the chat automatically translated. AltaVista does translation of web pages...
15:12:46	JohnSuler	BEHAVIOR ONLINE WOULD LIKE TO WELCOME YOU TO THIS PANEL DISCUSSION ON CLINICAL APPLICATIONS OF EMAIL..... THANK YOU FOR COMING!
15:12:47	Billie	sits and watches the beginning
15:12:47	Gil-Levin	All is well for me technically at least....
15:12:54	Stephen-Biggs	For me it's no the application, but online chat itself that I find hard to get used to
15:13:10	JohnSuler	Our distinguished panelists include Craig Childress, Michael Fenichel, Robert Hsiung, Storm King, and Kimberly Young..... with me as the moderator.
15:13:23	Tom	Hello
15:13:32	JohnSuler	You can read about their work and backgrounds in the program for this meeting
15:13:48	JohnSuler	During the panel discussion, please refrain from sending public messages. You are welcome to "whisper" (send private messages) to other attenders, but keep in mind that if you whisper to someone, the chat program places a series of dots next to your name.
15:14:09	JohnSuler	After the panel discussion, when the meeting is opened up to questions and comments from the audience, indicate that you want to speak by typing the message "hand."
15:14:39	Francisco-Lopez	I have read some things from you and I have been surprised of the difference between USA and Spain.
15:14:44	JohnSuler	How have you used email in your clinical work and training?
15:15:18	dr-bob	I sometimes receive and send emails to patients...
15:16:04	dr-bob	I can't say I've done much with it in the "training" realm...
15:16:07	storm	I referred a client with a rare disorder to an online self help group and he was able to get peer support for the first time
15:16:40	Kimberly-Young	primarily as a consultation service for individuals
15:16:44	Craig-Childress	I've used e-mail as an adjunctive intervention with some in-person clients.
15:16:48	Dr-Mike	I use e-mail as an additional communication tool with colleagues, and occasionally for appointments, educational postings, etc...
15:17:06	dr-bob	Oh, I should have specified, that's email with "real life" patients, I don't do (haven't done yet) completely-online therapy.
15:17:35	JohnSuler	Besides email, are there other ways you use the internet for clinical work and training?
15:17:54	Dr-Mike	My "training" didn't include e-mail... or pen & paper, either! And I do believe that it's a good way to make referrals/introductions.
15:18:14	dr-bob	To go back a second...
15:18:35	dr-bob	I suppose you could consider participation in mailing lists to be a form of training.
15:18:39	Craig-Childress	Generally, I have been using a journal writing model in which the benefit from the intervention is derived from the client's experience of writing, not necessarily from my response.
15:19:21	dr-bob	A lot of my work on the web I consider educational.
15:19:57	Dr-Mike	Absolutely educational, both a learning and teaching tool!
15:20:06	Kimberly-Young	i can't say I have utilized the net for training purposes, however, in addition to email, I utilize chat for consults
15:20:28	JohnSuler	and Bob, you also are involved in audio-visual conferencing, correct?
15:20:32	storm	I have learned )training) about some rare psychopathology by observing self help groups online and noting the coping strategies members report to each other
15:20:56	Craig-Childress	Hmm
15:21:58	JohnSuler	What are the various ways email COULD be used in clinical work? For a moment, let's just brainstorm on ideas, without evaluating them as good or bad. Sometimes silly ideas lead to useful ones.
15:22:04	dr-bob	John, Judy and I are working on a therapy by videoconferencing project, yes.
15:22:49	dr-bob	And of course there's Grand Rounds on the Internet
15:23:12	storm	To help people with Social Phobia to start to interact socially with others in a safer environment
15:23:34	dr-bob	The next presentation of which happens to be tomorrow at 11 am Chicago time. End of promotional spiel.
15:23:48	Dr-Mike	As many of us have heard or presented, there are situations of geographic or psychological isolation, where either "treatment", or at least "consultation" may be a lifesaver, or at least a support... (Access to self-help online, too)
15:23:48	Kimberly-Young	email services could provide help for people located in remote areas or those who have trouble finding professionals that specialize in a specific treatment area
15:24:06	Craig-Childress	A bit off topic, but my refresh button only allows me to see other people's comments after I send one, so I may from time to time just say "hmm" to see what others are saying between my last comment and the more recent one
15:24:45	storm	for anyone who can not or will not present for f2f treatment - it can help open the door to f2f help
15:25:04	JohnSuler	might people with borderline disorder benefit from email contact between sessions, or during the therapist's vacations?
15:25:08	dr-bob	Or it could potentially be an intervention in and of itself.
15:25:09	Dr-Mike	It can be complex... IO
15:25:11	Dr-Mike	It can be complex... I
15:25:41	dr-bob	Yes, it can help with "object constancy".
15:27:25	Dr-Mike	Object constancy is very complex too... Does the opportunity to read one's "session" transcript promote this?
15:27:39	JohnSuler	interesting, Craig
15:27:43	dr-bob	Homework is a good point, it's more delimited that "therapy" in general.
15:27:52	storm	For family therapy with a distant member
15:28:08	storm	in addition to f2f family therapy
15:28:14	dr-bob	Mike, yes, and it also protects against distortion of what was said.
15:28:25	Craig-Childress	Symptom management reporting for schizophrenic patients
15:28:44	Dr-Mike	Then therapy too can be "education" -- or "homework".
15:28:51	dr-bob	Mild-moderate medication side-effects...
15:28:57	JohnSuler	for "recaps" of an f2f session?
15:29:14	Craig-Childress	Social skills building for low-functioning or socially anxious clients
15:29:24	Vicky-L	hand
15:29:35	Kimberly-Young	It seems that email would have several applications for cognitive-behavioral approaches, supportive counseling, and education
15:29:39	JohnSuler	as a "bridge" between f2f sessions
15:29:46	dr-bob	Symptom reporting and "recaps" I think are potential uses, but you have to be careful not to slip into something that would be better dealt with in person.
15:30:04	Craig-Childress	Improving the quality of life for low-functioning patients by increasing social networks
15:30:40	storm	to consult with an expert on a case
15:31:08	dr-bob	But even if it's not something you follow up with online, it at least alerts you to something to address in person.
15:31:47	dr-bob	Mike, do you see any correlation between email social skills and real life social skills? :-)
15:31:49	JohnSuler	What would be some clinical uses of email that you all would agree are beneficial?
15:32:53	dr-bob	Craig, right, it can alert you to a change in status. That you would actually deal with in person.
15:33:04	Dr-Mike	Craig- a bit off, but... how do these patients respond to the opportunity for between-appointment contact? And yes, Bob, I do see a correlation, but some people are equally "cathected" to on-phone lives which impede their family lives, too.
15:33:40	storm	Like using email as narrative therapy as a supplement to f2f treatment
15:33:46	Craig-Childress	I believe those types of intervention that rely on the clients writing as the therapeutic intervention are better than those that rely on the therapist's sage advice and counsel
15:33:49	dr-bob	Mike, it's a double-edged sword. Or modality. Or whatever.
15:34:19	Dr-Mike	This is trite, but I thing "shaping" communicative behavior is generally positive, no matter what the modality.
15:34:22	Kimberly-Young	it seems the major themes are social skills training, cognitive-behavioral assignments, education both in terms of the client and seeking out guidance from experts in the field, and symptom management.
15:34:28	JohnSuler	f2f = "face to face"
15:34:30	storm	pardon my spelling - I have dis-lex-e-a :-)
15:35:32	dr-bob	Everything is potentially harmful...
15:35:37	Craig-Childress	I think solution focused interventions also hold promise since they encourage the client to develop his or her own strengths.
15:36:10	JohnSuler	can you explain, Bob?
15:37:27	Craig-Childress	I'd be concerned about cognitive interventions in which the therapist confronts the client's irrational beliefs
15:37:30	dr-bob	But there are also special concerns related to online interventions.
15:37:36	storm	potentially harmful? counter-transference (the therapist falls in love, by email, with the client :-)
15:37:45	Dr-Mike	Harmful email? Well, if "text-based therapy" becomes in itself a substitute for relation-based therapy, it might imho be a positive for some (e.g., with communication or social deficits) and for others become an "addictive" displacement of real-life relationships.
15:37:46	JohnSuler	how so, Craig?
15:37:48	dr-bob	For example, that it might lead to Internet Addiction.
15:37:58	JohnSuler	LOL, Storm!
15:38:01	storm	many of the same things that would be harmful in f2f therapy
15:38:21	Kimberly-Young	I suppose without the verbal context and non-verbal cues, it may be easy to misinterpret statements made within an email message.
15:38:45	Craig-Childress	Confrontation in a text-based medium seems an unwise therapeutic intervention
15:38:50	dr-bob	Kimberly, good point.
15:38:52	JohnSuler	on a related issue about potential harm.... What, for you, are the most pressing ethical issues about using e-mail for clinical work?
15:39:06	Kimberly-Young	Interesting point, Dr. Bob
15:39:08	Dr-Mike	(Funny how we all sing the chorus on "addictiveness") Good points too on the ethical dilemmas which can develop, countertransference, insistent letter-writing, etc...
15:40:01	dr-bob	I wonder, is counter-transference love always counter-therapeutic?
15:40:08	storm	text-based relationships have a huge potential for transference (good and bad)
15:40:25	dr-bob	Never mind that, I was just musing.
15:40:41	Craig-Childress	For the same reason which Kimberly just cited, misinterpretation, plus confrontation may sound too harsh without the holding environment of in-person relationships
15:40:42	storm	there is a lot of projection involved - people literally read what they want to hear
15:40:56	dr-bob	I think one of the most significant ethical concerns has to do with the competence of the therapist.
15:40:58	JohnSuler	could email contacts pose problems for the therapist... i.e., boundary problems and intrusion on their personal life?
15:41:52	Dr-Mike	Someone before mentioned "distortions", which the nature of text may lend itself toward, for clarification. However, the flip side may be gross misinterpretation, without a live counselor/therapist to clarify or "demystify". And yes, I could see a very anxious or angry or depressed patient having a difficult time if the therapist is offline for a while!
15:41:57	JohnSuler	good points, Storm and Bob
15:42:15	storm	competence of the therapist - good point. how to tell if one is competent in text based relationships?
15:42:34	JohnSuler	ethical concerns..... confidentiality?
15:42:35	Craig-Childress	Regarding ethical issues, I think Developing ethical standards appropriate to cyberspace is vital
15:42:47	Kimberly-Young	yes, John, I could see the complications to boundary problems, however, that is also true with ftf therapy dependent upon a practitioner's ability to set his or her own limits.
15:43:40	Dr-Mike	Right, confidentiality and identity always come up as big factors. There's a lot of debate, however, on just whose code of ethics should apply, certainly to licensed mental health professionals!
15:43:49	storm	text is interpreted as representing the well thought out firmly held views of the writer - when a lot of email is typing off the top of ones head
15:43:51	dr-bob	I think confidentiality is a risk, but can be dealt with with informed consent.
15:44:12	Craig-Childress	And I agree with Bob, developing standards of competence for delivering text-based interventions, or even discussing the issue.
15:44:49	dr-bob	Storm has a good point. But if one is doing online therapy, one shouldn't just type off the top of one's head. Like you shouldn't just say whatever's on your mind if you're treating someone in your office.
15:45:15	Kimberly-Young	good point, Dr. Mike, it is such a diverse field, I am sure virtual regulation would be quite difficult in terms of looking at whose ethics codes
15:45:50	Craig-Childress	I believe that for cybertherapy, my expertise is less important than the client's therapeutic use of writing.
15:46:16	storm	isolated area of the country emails you. get a real life address, phone number, and emergency contact
15:46:18	storm	isolated area of the country emails you. get a real life address, phone number, and emergency contact
15:46:27	Dr-Mike	So, Dr.Bob, your own counter-transference gets filtered by the text and delay between the dialogue? :-)
15:46:32	dr-bob	Each discipline would develop it's own regulations. Because they would want to retain their autonomy.
15:46:42	JohnSuler	good storm
15:47:16	JohnSuler	would any of you be willing to conduct ongoing email therapy with a person living in an isolated area?
15:47:21	dr-bob	Mike, good point. It provides an opportunity to self-reflect.
15:47:25	storm	agree on how much email to expect each week (day)
15:47:38	dr-bob	Licensing is an issue...
15:47:54	storm	yes - it that was the only or best way for them to get help
15:48:42	Craig-Childress	I would need to have legal jurisdictional issues resolved.
15:48:50	Kimberly-Young	yes - within the scope of my area of expertise
15:48:54	JohnSuler	HOW ABOUT THIS SCENARIO: A client you have seen in-person on a steady basis for two months wants to switch to email contact rather than in-person sessions. He says that he would feel "more comfortable with email for a while."
15:49:19	Craig-Childress	Also, I'm not convinced that e-mail therapy is as powerful as in-person therapy. Therefore I'd have trouble charging the same rate as for in-person therapy.
15:49:44	storm	Craig said "my expertise is less important than the client's therapeutic use of writing." good point.
15:49:47	dr-bob	Craig, but your time's your time...
15:49:52	Dr-Mike	Storm raises another issue--what to do if there's a risk of suicide, homicide, etc. I already do provide some "support" for people in remote areas going online for help. On one level, my web resources provide self-help, while on another I often give free (educational-not "therapeutic") consultation, making sure to define the relationship as such.
15:49:57	Craig-Childress	But then it may not be worth my time to do e-mail work if I charge less for my online time than for my in-person time
15:50:20	storm	more comfortable with email for a while. ask why first, he may be trying to hide
15:50:39	dr-bob	Yes, explore.
15:51:40	JohnSuler	HOW ABOUT THIS SCENARIO: A person from another country emails you to express some concerns about whether her current therapy is really helping or not. She wants to consult with you about this via email. You are very knowledgeable about the type of problem
15:51:59	Craig-Childress	Regarding the second scenario, an in-person client wanting to switch to email, Nope, wouldn't do it
15:52:30	storm	Craig - text-based therapy is NOT as powerful as f2f - but it can be a lot more effective than no help at all
15:52:34	Craig-Childress	I can do a lot in f2f. I like anxiety. Anxiety and discomfort are my therapeutic friends
15:52:43	Kimberly-Young	I suppose I would evaluate the situation based upon the client's presenting problem and the client's progress over the course of the two month therapy provided.
15:52:48	dr-bob	I think these things are tricky. This could establish a therapist-client relationship.
15:52:57	JohnSuler	note to audience: hit refresh to avoid being idle and becoming disconnected )
15:53:22	storm	to consult with you about this via email. I would want to have others consulted as well
15:53:25	dr-bob	You have to worry about splitting. Plus cultural differences. And even language issues.
15:53:45	Dr-Mike	As one of the early check-ins mentioned, things may be different, say in Spain, than in New York or Chicago! And notwithstanding the cultural issues (and licensing, as Bob highlighted), second-guessing a primary therapist is messy enough as is!
15:54:19	storm	i would not offer much in such a consultation - to many unknowns about the client
15:54:19	Craig-Childress	Regarding consultation with a person from another country, it's a difficult issue.... but no. I would offer information and online resources but not advice specific to her situation
15:54:24	JohnSuler	NEXT SCENARIO: A colleague you know fairly well wants supervision with you via email on a difficult case. Some of the colleague's exchanges with the client are via email, which your colleague wants to share with you. The colleague lives and works far away
15:54:43	dr-bob	Now if the therapist were interested in a second opinion, too, that would be very different.
15:55:07	dr-bob	Confidentiality is of course a concern here.
15:55:27	storm	colleague wants to share with you i have no problem with that - especially if i knew i could call him if necessary
15:55:47	dr-bob	(1) getting the client's permission to share the emails, and (2) protecting them in transit.
15:55:51	Dr-Mike	And I'd imagine they'd expunge identifying information, so it could be like a "virtual grand rounds", as sometimes happens, or simply "supervision" or "a consult"
15:56:00	Kimberly-Young	Yes, my first concern was the informed consent of the client and confidentiality related to sharing the email
15:56:38	dr-bob	May I interrupt? I'm curious how many of us are set up to encrypt and decrypt email...
15:57:02	Craig-Childress	I wouldn't accept e-mail from another's client without client permission and, because e-mail is being used for supervision, I might also want client permission for the e-mail consultation
15:57:07	Dr-Mike	hand (but rarely use)
15:57:55	dr-bob	I still don't think it's super easy unless you happen, as I do, to use a compatible program like Eudora.
15:58:01	JohnSuler	ONE MORE SCENARIO: A face-to-face client successfully finishes psychotherapy with you. He wants to stay in touch with you through email.
15:58:12	Billie	<hrumph> you obviously just aren't allowed to observe
15:58:45	storm	stay in touch did we agree on a rate to charge him for this ;-)
15:59:02	dr-bob	OK, if they're aware of the confidentiality issues, but I'd want to watch out for the re-emergence of "issues".
15:59:03	Javier-Salazar	....
15:59:33	JohnSuler	OK, I've moved through these questions quickly in order to get as many ideas as possible out for discussion. Let's open up the discussion to questions and comments from the audience.
15:59:46	dr-bob	Since, after all, we don't prohibit former clients from sending us notes in the regular mail.
16:00:13	Javier-Salazar	hand
16:00:14	Craig-Childress	Probably. I'd consider dependency issues, but, on the other hand, e-mail might usefully facilitate termination transition and e-mail follow-ups might provide a cost effective continuing intervention
16:00:14	keni	hand
16:00:14	dr-bob	(bracing self)
16:00:38	JohnSuler	YES, KENI
16:01:50	dr-bob	We're planning on using CU-SeeMe.
16:02:13	Azy	A question I struggle with has to do with personal attributes that might interact with the impact of email-based help
16:02:14	gail	Hand
16:02:15	JohnSuler	GO AHEAD, JUDY K
16:02:18	dr-bob	As the software. Quickcams as the hardware.
16:02:19	Craig-Childress	The nature of the continuing relationship would need to be defined more clearly. I might define the relationship as "I'll read em but won't respond unless we re-establish a therapeutic relationship."
16:02:29	Judy-K	Might the issue of harmfulness be addressed by establishing a contract with the client that if anything written "lands" in a distressing or harmful was the client will contact you by phone? With boundary management, also
16:02:33	storm	David-Yonkin - why would special software be needed?
16:03:06	Francisco-Lopez	Well, I want to ask you something: I have "heard" many things in this chat, but I am still in doubt about the tradition of on-line psychology out of Spain. My question is: Does this tradition exist in USA, for example, or it is begining just now?
16:03:18	JohnSuler	Good question, Judy
16:03:28	storm	I see 3 hands up :-)
16:03:37	dr-bob	Judy, a fantastic idea. A lot of issues can be dealt with satisfactorily, I think, just by anticipating them.
16:03:44	Javier-Salazar	The online self ( a login, a nicknmae, an avatar ) CAN be potentially different form the offline self. ( See Turkle, Identity in the age of the Internet ) Wouldn't it be therapeutic if the therapist established online therapy AS WELL AS f2f therapy? That way he can get in touch with the patients online persona, see differences, see who is the person online, in a case of Internet Addiction. Who is the paatient online? Why is he hooked with his online self instead of his offline self......?
16:03:48	Francisco-Lopez	Sorry; I haven't said "hand". I say it now.
16:04:15	JohnSuler	OTHER RESPONSES TO JUDY K, PANELISTS?
16:04:44	Mary	hand
16:04:50	Craig-Childress	Regarding Judy's question, yes. I think it is very important to establish such a therapeutic contract with e-mail clients.
16:05:17	David-Yonkin	HAND
16:05:17	dr-bob	Although, of course, you can't guarantee that that's what the client would actually do in that situation...
16:05:28	JohnSuler	I think the boundary management issue is important.. it's easy for the clinician to get drawn into excessive email contact with clients
16:05:30	storm	Judy-K - yes. in general, if text therapy is to occur, a lot must be agreed on by both parties first.
16:05:57	JohnSuler	GO AHEAD WITH YOUR QUESTION GAIL
16:06:01	Kimberly-Young	regarding judy's question, yes, i think such issues should be discussed
16:06:05	Dr-Mike	I have a former (inpatient) schizophrenic client who somehow got my unlisted home phone. He calls me once a year, to ascertain that I'm still alive, basically. I used to be annoyed. Now I see the importance of even this brief "touching base". But I agree w/ "Boundary management" where possible. (If not: "Analyze this!")
16:06:26	storm	John - sounds like personal experience :-)
16:06:34	Azy	In what terms would you define boundaries?
16:06:45	Craig-Childress	The excessive e-mail issue is extremely important and is not often discussed
16:06:54	Mary	HAND
16:07:20	Francisco-Lopez	HAND
16:07:38	dr-bob	(tangent: an advantage of online therapy that I've never seen mentioned is that you can get up and go to the bathroom in the middle of a session if you've had too much java beforehand) :-)
16:07:49	Azy	Craig - in terms of frequency? Length?
16:07:59	Javier-Salazar	HAND.... second time......
16:08:02	JohnSuler	JAVIER, WOULD YOU LIKE TO ASK YOUR QUESTION?
16:08:18	Gil-Levin	hand: What about Mary and Francisco?
16:08:38	gail	some of you referred to the issues of object relations. Do you think that online therapy can be used to modify ego structure?
16:09:26	Francisco-Lopez	Me?
16:09:38	storm	dr-bob - yes, the wonderful nature of asynchronous, anonymous interpersonal interactions - i did not have to shave for this social gathering :-)
16:09:40	JohnSuler	.... interesting question, Gail....
16:09:57	Craig-Childress	Both frequency and length (but frequency is more annoying)
16:10:14	dr-bob	John, which question are we on, sorry?
16:10:58	JohnSuler	the structure is breaking down a bit.... let's try opening it up to whoever wants to talk.. and see what happens (hold onto your hat!)
16:11:16	Javier-Salazar	The online self can be different from the offline self. Wouldn't it be therapeutic if the therapist is involved in online therapy as well a f2f therapy? In a case of Intenet addiction, he can see who is the patient's online persona, see why he is hooked with his online self instead of his offline self..
16:11:24	Craig-Childress	Regarding Gail's question, Yes, I do think e-mail can modify ego structure, but probably not in the same way as it's done in f2f
16:11:26	dr-bob	(bracing self)
16:11:30	JohnSuler	OPEN DISCUSSION... NO HAND RAISING NECESSARY
16:11:31	Kimberly-Young	yes, it is a little difficult to follow the flow
16:11:33	storm	career interest testing been there - done that. see Steve Herman's work
16:11:41	Dr--mancini	I think E Mail Assessment comes before Therapy?
16:12:01	dr-bob	David, I think it's interesting that the usual assumption is that maximized contact is better. That may not be the case.
16:12:26	dr-bob	Javier, I'm not so sure it's possible to have an online self that's so different than one's offline self.
16:12:33	David-Yonkin	If it might not be the case, how can we tell?
16:13:08	Allan-Schwartz	please pardon my ignorance, but, what is f2f?
16:13:13	storm	David-Yonkin - online video connections that are worth watching will occur soon enough - but that is a real time connection and the asynchronous nature of email will still assure it's place in all this
16:13:17	Judy-K	This has been a discussion with many great ideas, experiences, and points. Do you plan to make a transcript available?
16:13:21	storm	f2f + face to face
16:13:29	dr-bob	David, I guess we could tell by the client's reaction?
16:13:31	Kimberly-Young	I would imagine that career interest testing is similar to certain computerized personality or neuropsychological testing procedures
16:13:35	JohnSuler	perhaps "self" expressed itself a bit differently through text than through verbal expression
16:13:41	Robin-Sircus	I find mixing email with chat therapy very effective
16:13:45	Vicky-L	Craig, can you elaborate on your answer to Gail on how you think ego restructuring would be different???
16:13:48	JohnSuler	Yes, we plan to make a transcript available
16:14:01	Craig-Childress	Regarding using e-mail AND f2f to gain the benefits of each. Yes. Absolutely. I believe the conjoint use of these different approaches offers the most effective type of online intervention.
16:14:30	Kimberly-Young	Javier, the issue assumes that the person is "addicted" to the Internet because they have developed an online persona.
16:14:49	Javier-Salazar	The online self could be different fron his offline self. It's a matter of virtual identity: he can be a 40 year old woman online while being a male teenager offline, he can be a Knight on a Medieval MUD instead of being a mechanic..
16:14:50	Dr-Mike	Javier-Salazar raises an interesting point. I work (f2f) with a teenager who has a
16:15:15	Dr-Mike	(Sorry Bob, got stuck in the whisper window. That was meant to be public.)
16:15:54	storm	what about addiction to online gambling or pornography? that does not involve a "online persona."
16:16:06	Kimberly-Young	In some cases, that is part of the reason for their obsessive usage, and online observations of the persona would be beneficial in such as instance.
16:16:34	gail	It seems like there's a big difference between using online technology as an adjunct to f2f face clients versus someone who you've never met. I think we need more discussion about how assessment via text.
16:16:47	dr-bob	Dr. Mancini, and how would you distinguish them? :-)
16:16:57	Francisco-Lopez	HAND
16:17:21	JohnSuler	OPEN DISCUSSION... NO HAND RAISING IS NECESSARY
16:17:41	Craig-Childress	Vicky, not in chat :-) I think that the issue involves the greater tendency to project in cyberspace than in the real world.
16:18:14	Dr--mancini	Clinical E Mail, Chat (Voice or Text combined) Video Phone or Conference is certainly viable for assessment and therapy.
16:18:31	Francisco-Lopez	I repeat my message: Well, I want to ask you something: I have "heard" many things in this chat, but I am still in doubt about the tradition of on-line psychology out of Spain. My question is: Does this tradition exist in USA, for example, or it is begining just now?
16:18:33	storm	assessment via text. hypothetical approach - "here a password to my assessment web site - go answer these questions then we will type to each other about if text therapy is appropriate
16:18:36	Dr-Mike	Javier-Salazar raises an interesting point. I work (f2f) with a teenager who has a web page with a great deal of autobiographical "narrative text". Both the material, and our discussion of it (basically accurate self-percepts) have been fruitful, as well as his positive reaction to my having seen his web page.
16:18:37	Craig-Childress	I also think that the mutable quality of identity in cyberspace may play a role in ego restructuring type work
16:18:45	Billie	hands on hips looking at the 'idle' and saying... tsk tsk I am not idle.. I am observing
16:19:07	dr-bob	Francisco, it is beginning just now.
16:19:11	Azy	Well, what do you think about my question concerning the interaction of the impact of email-based help and patient's personal attributes?
16:19:13	Radiance	Kimberly? are you assuming anyone with an online persona is obsessive? Isn't that rather broad considering the vastness of the medium?
16:19:20	Dr--mancini	Assessment leads to diagnosis leads to therapy treatment if appropriate.
16:19:51	Kimberly-Young	No, I was replying to Javier's question related to online personas
16:20:07	Radiance	oh.. thank you
16:20:26	Craig-Childress	Regarding the question of Francisco-Lopez, No, a tradition of online therapeutic intervention is only beginning and there are a number of important clinical, legal, and ethical hurdles ahead of us.
16:20:35	storm	Radiance - your question is a good example of the miss-understandings inherent in text communications
16:20:39	Billie	nods to dr-bob and winks I know
16:20:43	Francisco-Lopez	In Spain I have had to retire my site because the Psychologist College don't consider incredible the idea of making on-line therapy through programs like ICQ.
16:20:51	storm	espically confusing chat rooms
16:21:06	dr-bob	Dr. Mancini, yes, in theory, I completely agree. But it's not always so sequential in reality.
16:21:10	Dr--mancini	Spelling is important in text therapy Storm.
16:21:18	dr-bob	Azy, could you elaborate on your question?
16:21:52	Radiance	yes.. but this is text of many people Storm.. if you were 'in session' with someone.. I would assume it would be 1 on 1 and less confusing?
16:21:53	Kimberly-Young	ah, a good point storm
16:22:00	dr-bob	Francisco, they forced you to retire it? Tell us more!
16:22:02	Robin-Sircus	Francisco I am in Brazil and the tradition is so young I do not think you can call it a tradition
16:22:14	dr-bob	Storm, espically! :-)
16:22:14	Dr--mancini	Well it is certainly the appropriate E Mail clinical application before deciding on object constancy and other transference issues.
16:22:23	Craig-Childress	Azy... big issue. I'm sure it's full of fruitful exploration, however, I'm not yet experienced enough with this medium to make a valuable contribution about this. Do you have any ideas?
16:22:29	Stephen-Biggs	Does anyone wish to comment more on the use of journalling through e-mail?
16:22:29	storm	Spelling is important in text therapy the tradition I am aware of for chat rooms is that it is more important to keep up the flow of ideas
16:23:03	Robin-Sircus	I am sorry to hear the Francisco they are ignorant
16:23:04	Dr-Mike	Amen to Craig's comment on emerging legal/ethical precedents. BTW, with John G in attendance, I'd repeat the question asked a few times: Will this be saved in transcript form? (Btw, text can have spell-check applied; can "online therapy" have email-relation-check applied?)
16:23:10	storm	Radiance: yes asynchronous is much less confusing
16:23:25	dr-bob	Why not have a chat room that automatically does spell checks???
16:23:51	Azy	there may be clues coming from bibliotherapy...
16:24:07	Dr-Mike	Dr. Bob, and text-based therapy whose software has "interpretation-check"? :-)
16:24:25	dr-bob	Azy, I'm still not sure what kind of interaction you're thinking of.
16:24:28	Francisco-Lopez	Do you refer to my Spanish colleagues, Robin?
16:24:42	JohnSuler	I'D LIKE YOUR FEEDBACK ON THIS CHAT MEETING..... What you liked... what could be improved.... ideas for future meetings..... please email me your feedback (suler@voicenet.com)
16:25:00	dr-bob	I'm serious, these are potential technological improvements.
16:25:33	Azy	personal attributes x derived personal impact! 4 instance, people who more verbal may benefit more...
16:25:41	Robin-Sircus	Yes Francisco
16:25:49	Billie	nods to dr-bob... but the 'spelling' does say something in and of itself
16:26:13	gail	Francisco-Lopez: how does the Psychologist College have control over how you use your site? I don't think we have that type of oversight in the USA although some people think we should. Are you a psychologist?
16:26:19	Stephen-Biggs	Robin: Have you used it with clients, if so in what way(s)?
16:26:23	Vicky-L	so what's the answer: WILL THIS MEETING BE SAVED IN TRANSCRIPT FORM?
16:26:23	Dr--mancini	l allows spellcheck and interpretation can be the clinical assessment report or a computerized E mail version.
16:26:31	Dori	I find this exciting but difficult to keep track of the different lines of conversation... though I suspect I'd get better at it if I used chat rooms more... let's do this again!
16:26:31	Javier-Salazar	I think legal/ethical issues of online therapy have to be solved before permitting online therapy. It has to be regulated first
16:26:33	Dr-Mike	I know you're serious... and right, Dr.Bob. But I was thinking like Billie... what would we do without "Freudian slips" to interpret?? :-)
16:26:50	David-Yonkin	although in f2f one doesn't have to spell, just speak! :)
16:26:50	dr-bob	I don't think it's realistic to insist that legal, ethical, etc., issues get completely worked out first, and only then to proceed with the activity.
16:26:55	Judy-K	Re: feedback--a lot clearer that the prior discussion. With a focused discussion first and followed by questions. Helps, also, in the non-structured discussion when people make reference to the question they are responding to in their replies.
16:27:13	dr-bob	Mike, excellent point. I withdraw the suggestion.
16:27:17	Francisco-Lopez	Dora: in Spain online therapy doesn't exist. At least, it has not to exiist, because in the Deontologic Code it is supossed that all the therapeutic methods have to be scientifically proved and, also supossed, that online therapy isn't proved yet.
16:27:21	storm	we often forget that we are talking about text net therapy only for that population that can afford a PC, can access the net, and can type (and spell :-)
16:27:29	Janet	actually text therapy allows client opportunity to correct his "freudian slips"before they ever reach you...
16:27:39	JohnSuler	A TRANSCRIPT OF THIS MEETING WILL BE MADE AVAILABLE
16:27:56	Ken	Are there spell checkers that check as you type?
16:27:58	Sheryl	I have only "sort of" been able to follow the discussion due to my program, but would like to bring up a concern I have re on-line therapy... that psychotherapists who are unfamiliar with the dynamics of on-line therapy become involved with it without having enough knowledge about the medium. Could anyone comment?
16:27:59	Craig-Childress	Azy, yes. but what these traits are and how they interact, I'm not yet sure
16:28:07	Javier-Salazar	I think online therapy has an enormous potential, but i has to be regulated firs...
16:28:09	JohnSuler	IF YOU RECEIVED THE ANNOUNCEMENT FOR THIS MEETING, YOU WILL RECEIVE THE ANNOUNCEMENT ABOUT THE TRANSCRIPT
16:28:13	dr-bob	Janet, hmm, so ones that make it through are even more significant!
16:28:30	Azy	I think one of the main benefits of email-based help is empowerment, because of the special more egalitarian relationships
16:28:36	Robin-Sircus	Stephen I have not formally used it as I have used it myself and as I have seen it used but I see the intuitive sense when going deep with a virtual client
16:28:49	dr-bob	Sheryl, those are the ones that Craig was referring to, who might be competent in regular therapy, but might not be in online therapy.,
16:28:54	Dr--mancini	After the E mail, we have the spellcheck. Hello. Most E Mail browsers offer spellcheck which isn't a major issue.
16:29:05	storm	unfamiliar with the dynamics of on-line therapy become involved with it they can do more harm then good
16:29:13	JohnSuler	EMAIL ME IF YOU ARE NOT SURE YOU ARE ON THE MAILING LIST FOR BOL CHAT MEETINGS - suler@voicenet.com
16:29:15	Gil-Levin	Excellent that: A TRANSCRIPT OF THIS MEETING WILL BE MADE AVAILABLE. There was a lot of interesting discussion.
16:29:27	Judy-K	Thanks. Enjoyed it. What's planned for the next one?
16:29:30	Azy	Craig - take verbal ability/fluency as an example! this deserves research!
16:29:33	Radiance	I agree Sheryl.. and I believe 'online' communications vary greatly.. this form of communicating is very different then Email.. as is Virtual chat vs. this form
16:29:57	JohnSuler	I think one of the most interesting features of email is how the message is constructed... spelling, paragraph breaks, use of special characters, etc
16:30:01	storm	I have to leave now (my wife won tickets to tonight's rolling stones concert :-). this has been fun, educational, and I hope we can do it again.
16:30:28	Robin-Sircus	Online therapy needs to be regulated by an all virtual board of virtual therapists who are totally dedicated to this medium
16:30:36	Mary	A request for the person who recommended: WWW.CAREER.EP.USM.EDU/STEVE. Is this the correct website? My browser cannot find the address.
16:30:42	Kimberly-Young	have fun storm!!
16:30:43	Francisco-Lopez	I also defend online communication as an alternative (or complementary) way.
16:30:51	Billie	say HI to Mick from me storm
16:31:02	dr-bob	Storm, party hearty!
16:31:27	Dr-Mike	Tnx John S, re: Transcript. Ken, Microsoft Word spellchecks as you type if you're willing/able to compose and delay sending off your email... but most email clients have spellcheck which can be run before you hit SEND.
16:31:51	Sheryl	And also, how much knowledge/experience in CMC would qualify someone as experienced in CMC psychodynamics???
16:31:53	Robin-Sircus	Francisco I am sorry to hear that Spain is so far behind in Brazil it is popular in the press
16:32:14	Judy-K	Great! Will watch for future discussions. Bye for now.
16:32:17	dr-bob	Francisco, what would they have done had you not retired your site?
16:32:22	Allan-Schwartz	What concerns me about this as a medium for therapy is its relative anonymity, increased possibility for projection and distortion and for acting out. Please comment.
16:32:26	Javier-Salazar	Rolling Stones Storm... ;-)
16:32:29	Azy	it's: http://131.95.108.53/steve.asp
16:33:06	Francisco-Lopez	He, he. I laugh because I like very much to have met you all. I am glad that in Brazil it is extended.
16:33:14	Dr-Mike	Wow, I got whisked off when everyone else left, and now my screen is refreshing once a second! Wow... Take care all, nice to "see you"... Thanks John S! Always a pleasure... Paz!
16:33:16	Dr--mancini	A-S, which type of therapy?
16:33:22	Kimberly-Young	John, I want to thank you very much for inviting me to be a part of this distinguished panel!
16:33:23	dr-bob	Allan, more grist for the mill.
16:33:33	JohnSuler	I'm glad you could make it, Francisco
16:33:39	Vicky-L	Allan, I'm not so sure that all the things you mentioned are ALL bad
16:33:49	JohnSuler	Thank you for coming, Kimberly!
16:33:56	Kimberly-Young	I need to run myself, so I want to say good-bye to all and again, thank you for having me.
16:33:58	Billie	set your refresh down to 5 Mike
16:34:01	Javier-Salazar	Also i think that online therapy is going to bring in qualitative analysis of text written documents in vogue....
16:34:06	JohnSuler	And my thanks to all of the panelists!
16:34:08	Mary	Thank you Azy! I enjoyed watching the chat everyone. Bye!
16:34:10	dr-bob	Dr. Mancini, those kinds of assessments are straightforward, yes, but don't give you the whole picture.
16:34:10	Robin-Sircus	Alan I think it great this increased projection because it makes it easier to confront the ego structure
16:34:14	Craig-Childress	Allan, that's what I love about this medium
16:34:21	Azy	Thank you John for leading the discussion
16:34:45	Noemi-Balinth	A clear benefit to this forum is our ability to interact with our international colleagues. Thanks all and bye for now!
16:34:49	Billie	nods to John yes thanks a tough job done well
16:35:29	Javier-Salazar	Bye to all... gotta go... Hasta la online vista Baby !!!!!
16:35:34	Dora-micki	John I have proposed a course and if approved will use you hypertext book.
16:35:41	Allan-Schwartz	This has been very interesting and I plan to learn more about using this medium for therapy. Signing off.
16:35:52	Dr--mancini	Hasta Luego!
16:36:09	Vicky-L	i have to leave, too. it's been really great. thank you all
16:36:09	Francisco-Lopez	Adios, Javier.
16:36:12	dr-bob	Francisco, so a lot of that had to do with how you presented your site. The fewer claims you make, the harder it is to accuse you of fraud.
16:36:13	Javier-Salazar	nks to all especially to John.
16:36:15	JohnSuler	thanks Billie
16:36:17	Robin-Sircus	Yes Craig I imagine you would say that :-))
16:36:18	Dr-Mike	My refresh is on 5, and it's refreshing now 2 times a second. Cool, but frantic. Ciao, Billy, Dr. Bob, Craig, Kimberly, other panelists, and audience. I think this was a good session and experiment! Holy moly is this a fast refresh now that the room is clearing! Ciao, all.
16:36:56	Dr--mancini	Arriverderci Dr. Mike
16:37:00	Billie	be safe Mike
16:37:58	Dr--mancini	Can someone focus on which assessment and which therapy for which person at which time in E mail applications?
16:38:05	Billie	dr-bob a fine meeting thanks
16:38:27	Francisco-Lopez	Yes, Bob. I understand I'm not at the level of diviners (tarot, for instance).
16:38:44	Robin-Sircus	What was that question Mancini???
16:38:47	Dr--mancini	Bye Billie.
16:38:53	dr-bob	Dr. Mancini, your web site could try to explain who you thought would be appropriate for your service...
16:39:09	Dr--mancini	Bye Vick L.
16:39:10	Azy	That's a GREAT question, Dr M., to which we have no
16:39:13	Dora-micki	Thanks for inviting me the meeting.
16:39:15	Dora-micki	Thanks for inviting me the meeting.
16:39:28	JohnSuler	SO FOLKS.. those of you who are still around... any feedback about the meeting?
16:39:36	Billie	am I leaving? or are you leaving Dr--mancini?
16:39:41	dr-bob	Billie, thanks, but it was JohnSuler's meeting. I just came to exercise my fingers.
16:40:13	Azy	John - thanks for organizing the meeting. I enjoyed it, despite the little mess...
16:40:35	Billie	other than this application gives me a headache nope the participants and meeting are awesome
16:40:37	Francisco-Lopez	I had the mistake of no identifying myself correctly, and I admit it, but I can't agree that online therapy is impossible, as my colleagues said.
16:40:42	Radiance	I think these meetings are great John... tho perhaps just seeds of what may develop
16:40:56	Janet	its great, but i don't recommend leaving during the middle; its hell trying to catch up
16:40:57	Dr--mancini	No, I'm in.
16:41:27	Stephen-Biggs	Thank you John and everyone else, I look forward to downloading the transcript
16:41:35	dr-bob	I wonder if there would be any way to "thread" a live chat...
16:41:45	Billie	me to Dr--mancini so I'll save the 'goodbye' for later than
16:41:57	Dr--mancini	Dr. Bob, Tell me more of your impressions.
16:42:08	Robin-Sircus	Hey John I have never seen email chat be really effective. This has been better than the last meeting but well group consciousness it still is not. I think that this could be great with a group of people who are really focused and really group conscious.
16:42:26	dr-bob	Francisco, did they way it was impossible, or that it just hadn't been shown to be possible?
16:42:26	JohnSuler	here's a question that is important... how does this kind of discussion in chat compare to doing it through an email list?
16:42:50	dr-bob	More chaotic this way.
16:43:00	Billie	immediate feedback is more stimulating
16:43:08	Dr--mancini	Dr. Bob, right from my ICQ on the web page.
16:43:09	gail	Thanks, John and everyone else. I look forward to more of this in the future. I thought the scenarios were most helpful since they move from the theoretical to the concrete, at least so far as possible w/o actual case study.
16:43:15	dr-bob	No time to think. Not much, anyway.
16:43:18	Radiance	I think this is more personal.. and I also believe Virtual chat is even more personal
16:43:21	Juan-Carlos-Vzla	Bye and thanks for information (Ccs/Vzla)
16:43:29	Billie	and yes bob you can thread chat....
16:43:32	Azy	Yes, I agree. Immediacy has special impact
16:43:56	JohnSuler	would people be willing to download and install software that would greatly improve the chat experience (for example VISUAL chat)?
16:44:00	psyc-stu	Although it is a bit difficult to follow the discussion at times, I would be interested another time
16:44:00	dr-bob	Billie, real time chat like this? Never seen it...
16:44:19	Janet	visual chat?? what a concept!
16:44:24	dr-bob	John, what do you mean "visual"?
16:44:33	Azy	and yes, it's more personal, because of the imm reactions
16:44:36	Francisco-Lopez	They said me: "That I consider incredible is you think that online therapy could be made with the actual resources of the Internet.
16:44:40	dr-bob	You mean with avatars, like the Palace? :-)
16:44:51	Billie	yes color code the individuals
16:44:56	JohnSuler	like Palace, Bob... with avatars, visual rooms, etc.
16:45:12	Azy	good idea, john!
16:45:14	Janet	worth a try John. might get less turnout however...
16:45:34	JohnSuler	It really does enhance the chat experience
16:45:41	dr-bob	Francisco, they might think it's incredible, but people used to think airplanes were incredible, too.
16:45:52	Radiance	I own 3 worlds in the AW program which has a 20 minute free D/L I would volunteer a place for experimenting with it
16:45:55	Billie	JohnS there is simpler applications really java applets of a web page that are much smoother
16:45:56	JohnSuler	but it does pose the problem of people having to download and install
16:46:22	JohnSuler	Yes, Billie, we're looking into that
16:46:28	dr-bob	I ended up at a Palace site that seemed to work through the web (ie, Netscape)...
16:46:48	Robin-Sircus	Francisco I see an image of people starring at a wheel and saying hey it will not turn. :-)
16:46:52	Francisco-Lopez	Of course, Dr. Bob.
16:46:54	Azy	john, we can go both ways at different times
16:46:58	JohnSuler	the problem with some of those programs is that they are not stable on all platforms (like mine... Mac :(
16:47:28	JohnSuler	yeah, Bob, there is a browser version of Palace... not as good as the standalone client, though
16:47:30	Radiance	ahhh true John : (
16:47:38	dr-bob	John, I only used Macs, and it worked for me...
16:48:09	Dr--mancini	Everything on the web is therapeutic.
16:48:23	JohnSuler	which program do you mean, Bob?
16:48:36	Francisco-Lopez	Have you had experiences with ICQ? It permits to see the letter step by step, one by one... I used it since my site begun.
16:48:36	Robin-Sircus	I think for sure cyber citizens and cyber therapists need to just leave the f2f world behind for a while and take a real journey into space. You cannot go to mars with a half a leg on earth.
16:49:00	Sheryl	I am concluding that my problems have to do with my system, so I will look forward to the transcript... but I want to say I appreciate this forum and look forward to the evolution of... whatever cybershrinking evolves to! Namaste' all :)
16:49:11	dr-bob	John, there was some web-Palace interface or plug-in or something. Hmm, if it was a plug-in, then I did need to download something...
16:49:22	Robin-Sircus	Yes Francisco I use ICQ all the time
16:49:29	Dr--mancini	Nice meeting you Sheryl.
16:50:04	JohnSuler	Oh, yeah Bob, Palace has been very good about programming for Macs (it was originally created on a Mac)
16:50:04	Radiance	Namast Sheryl
16:50:12	Billie	I believe the limit of ICQ for interactive real time is 6.. possible 7
16:50:13	Azy	i use icq frequently. it works great.
16:50:16	micki	John thanks for inviting me. I keeping getting disconnected.
16:50:27	JohnSuler	thanks for coming, Micki
16:50:28	dr-bob	Robin, you can't go to Mars without Earth to push off, either. :-)
16:50:35	Francisco-Lopez	If you want, my ICQ number is 14004586. In your disposition I am.
16:50:38	Robin-Sircus	Oh John do I ever miss my Macs
16:50:39	Dr--mancini	U Talk coincides with ICQ for simultaneous phone contact.
16:50:51	Dr--mancini	Bye micki.
16:51:14	JohnSuler	ICQ is good.. but again the problem is that it is a bit more difficult technically for some people
16:51:18	dr-bob	There's web-based ICQ now, too...
16:51:33	Azy	it's almost midnight here. good night all.
16:51:41	Robin-Sircus	Thanks will request now
16:51:43	Francisco-Lopez	I think ICQ is better than mIRC because you haven't to wait for the other part to end a message: you see it live.
16:51:49	dr-bob	John, I agree, I never got into ICQ myself.
16:51:59	Dr--mancini	That is on my site as I said earlier Dr. Bob.
16:52:09	JohnSuler	Nite, Azy
16:52:09	dr-bob	But it's fast.
16:52:23	Francisco-Lopez	More difficult, sure? I consider mIRC more difficult, and with difference.
16:52:57	JohnSuler	well, I have to go now... but again, thank you all for coming!!
16:53:05	dr-bob	I guess audio would be asking for trouble...
16:53:10	Dr--mancini	Good luck where ever you are in your studies Azy.
16:53:22	Billie	the format of IRC is presently running on many web sites as a simple java applet
16:53:32	Janet	Bye John
16:53:33	dr-bob	wb john g
16:53:57	JohnSuler	(nice thing about Palace is that the program can SPEAK the text to you)
16:54:00	JohnGrohol	ICQ as a Web-based chat is a Java plugin... So are most applications which use the Web as chat room.
16:54:02	Dr--mancini	Helloooooo, Dr. John
16:54:26	dr-bob	john s, can it translate?
16:54:32	JohnGrohol	There is a downside to all technologies available. For instance, the Palace is an expensive server system... and hard to write long, long text lines in! :-)
16:54:33	JohnSuler	bye all!
16:54:39	Billie	wb john
16:54:58	dr-bob	those automatic translators are really something
16:55:07	JohnGrohol	IRC is nice, but the only web-based thing for it is a Java applet. Nothing against Java, just that a lot of people can't run it (WebTV for instance).
16:55:39	JohnGrohol	But we're always looking into new suggestions... and appreciate them.
16:56:10	Billie	grins... those of us in the 'south' don't have coasts
16:56:11	JohnSuler	thanks, John, for your help in setting this up!
16:56:12	dr-bob	have a nice rest-of-your-day, everyone
16:56:16	Janet	so long and thanks for all the fish
16:56:26	Dr--mancini	Back to E mail clinical applications, ICQ me anytime from my site Dr. Bob. It has been interesting to say the least.
16:56:32	Billie	or coats even we do however have coasts
16:56:41	dr-bob	to bake?
16:56:45	JohnSuler	bye all! (didn't I say that already)... this time I really mean it... BYE!

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